= Wizards, Witches, Muggles, etc Group Section Folder+ Lucius Malfoy
schoff - Sep 24, 2003 12:47 am
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 3:43 am
While I was researching a quote today for the “House-elves” thread, I ran across a line in CoS which shocked me. I think it’s a very important line that’s possibly been overlooked. I searched everywhere through the threads and hopefully didn't miss it, since I could find no mention of it (including in the archives, even though many have come close). I also think it’s a line that has staggering implications for a variety of theories.
Here it is:
“Dobby heard tell,” he said hoarsely, “that Harry Potter met the Dark Lord for a second time, just weeks ago...that Harry Potter escaped yet again.” (CoS, US, Ch.2, 15)
This line is important because it reveals some serious questions about Lucius Malfoy, and his possible ability to deceive the Dark Lord.
“My Lord, I was constantly on the alert,” came Lucius Malfoy’s voice swiftly from beneath the hood. “Had there been any sign from you, any whisper of your whereabouts, I would have been at your side immediately, nothing could have prevented me--” (GoF, US, Ch.33, 650)
Clearly, this is a lie. Dobby worked for the Malfoys. Draco must have told Lucius about the events at the end of P/SS. I cannot imagine Draco either not discussing it with his father, or only discussing it with Dobby. Dobby must have overheard this conversation.
The questions that I have about this revelation are:
I know this has been discussed, and mainly discounted, but I think the actual proof is in Dobby's line. I base this on Voldemort’s reaction to Malfoy at the graveyard. He calls him “Lucius, my slippery friend...”(GoF, US, Ch.33, 650) I doubt Voldemort would be so nice to Malfoy if he knew Malfoy had been aware of his existence, yet left him to suffer for three years until Wormtail--of all people--came and rescued him. (Other reasons why I doubt Voldemort and Malfoy have been in contact since Voldemort’s first defeat are: One, even though Voldemort does cut Malfoy off in the quote above, it’s only to question his loyalty during the Quidditch World Cup, not to prevent Malfoy from saying too much; and Two, Malfoy’s reaction to Voldemort’s return, his begging Voldemort to tell him how he returned [“Master, we crave to know...we beg you to tell us...how you achieved this...this miracle...”(GoF, US, Ch.33, 652)], plus his seeming relief that Voldemort wasn’t going to punish him for his lack of faith.)
Snape tells Harry “The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency--” (OoP, US, Ch.24, 530). Since Malfoy was successful at lying to Voldemort, does this mean Malfoy has a greater skill? Could Malfoy be plotting something behind Voldemort’s back, perhaps leading to Voldemort’s downfall? Malfoy seems to be very ambitious. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind taking over Voldemort’s power.
If Voldemort couldn’t tell Malfoy was lying, does this lend credence to the theory that Snape is a returned Death Eater, in contact with Voldemort? I mean, if Voldemort couldn’t tell Malfoy was lying, could he tell if Snape was? Or: If Voldemort does know Malfoy is lying, why is he letting Malfoy get away with it? Why would Voldemort think it important to let a trusted Death Eater secretly betray the Dark Lord?
Since both are capable of lying to Voldemort, are they lying to each other? Or are they working together?
Are there any other possible outcomes that could come from Dobby’s statement? These were all I could think of for now.
Note: I’m starting this as it’s own thread because I couldn’t find a place to put this. If anyone knows a better place, please let me know and I’ll put it there.
(722 previous messages)
- Sep 26, 2008 6:06 am (#723 of 734)
Edited Sep 26, 2008 7:06 am
I know the school itself didn't accept Dodo as Headmistress. Remember the office sealed itself against her? Hogwarts itself seems to be sentient, as if it "realizes" that Dumbledore is still the rightful Head.
I tried to find some reference to the Board of Governors in the Lexicon, but there isn't too much. Lucius is sacked from the board at the end of CoS. To be honest, I can't remember reading much about them after PoA, when Draco holds them up as a threat to get Hagrid sacked because of Buckbeak.
Solitaire
Orion
- Sep 26, 2008 6:24 am (#724 of 734)
Is Hogwarts really sentient? I used to think that becasuee I loved to think that a big fat castle could have something like inbuilt brains, but really I think that DD simply put a spell on the office. All the moving stairs, the doors with attitude and the ROR must be bewitched by the founders or by able headmasters. Or by Fred and George.
- Sep 26, 2008 7:12 am (#725 of 734)
Edited Sep 26, 2008 8:26 am
I think that DD simply put a spell on the office. (Orion)
The office door sealing itself: Dolores could not get in but someone else must have been there. When Harry gets back to the castle from the MOM (travelling with a portkey), he arrives at DD's office. Later DD arrives, too. Then they talk and DD shows Harry the Prophecy in the Pensieve. The last time that we saw the Pensieve, it was in Snape's office (SWM) and by that time DD had already gone (?) from the school. Yet, when DD returns, the Pensieve is back in its old place. Either DD must have put it back into its place (if he could send a portkey to his office, he may have travelled there himself, invisible, too) or Snape must have been in DD's office, while Dolores was not able to enter.
Back to Lucius: I can't remember reading he was sacked from the Board at the end of CoS. I'll have to check it. But in PoA, he still had a hand in Buckbeak's death sentence, didn't he?
I didn't mean to say that Dolores was a rightful Headmistress, only that the Ministry / Minister seemed to try and appoint her but the Board was never even mentioned. Yet, in CoS, Fudge seems to be surprised hearing (apparently by accident) about DD's removal and he even protests but Lucius practically says the appointment or the suspension of the Headmaster is a matter for the Board and Fudge accepts it.
- Sep 26, 2008 7:08 pm (#726 of 734)
Julia, I learned that Lucius was sacked from the board when I looked at the Lexicon.
I'm not sure about the board. We do not hear them mentioned much, but they seem to be in in existence at the end of HBP. Didn't McGonagall say that keeping the school open after DD's death was a matter for the Board of Governors to decide? I'm too tired to go all the way to the back of the house to check my book!
Regarding what Fudge knew or didn't know ... I think he is kind of a dummy. Also, I don't have a lot of faith in a man who is so close to Lucius.
Solitaire
PeskyPixie
- Oct 9, 2008 2:15 pm (#727 of 734)
I just wish we could have 'seen' Lucius when he found out that his buddy Sev had been double-crossing the Death Eaters all along.
Hmmm, actually now that I think on it, I feel that there may have been some sort of gratitude towards Snape's bravery as the Malfoys were not doing well (to put it lightly) under Voldy's second rise to power.
- Oct 9, 2008 2:42 pm (#728 of 734)
By the end of the book all they cared about was Dracos safety and Narcissa is described as not caring whether Voldermort won or not. At the begining of the book I dont think they looked too pleased that their home was being used as HQ and Voldemort was directing things. They were treated as scum. I think they would have mixed emotions after Voldemort defeat. Draco was saved but they are described along the lines of "not sure they should be there". This suggests that at the very least they either think they are
1)Fraternising with the enemy by being in the hall.
2)Concerned that they will be in trouble from the authorities.
3)Alternatively the symbol of all they believe in has been removed and they are upset.
I just cant see that 1 or 3 would allow them to think positively about Snapes contribution because he was part of Voldemorts downfall.
If they are worried about being jailed then Snape still does not matter.
- Oct 9, 2008 6:19 pm (#729 of 734)
Lucius seems miserable when the book opens. Draco pretty much refused to identify the Trio back at Malfoy Manor. Narcissa's actions in the forest were treasonous. Once it becomes apparent that Harry is not dead, Lucius and Narcissa pretty much have to realize that their lives are toast if Voldy gets a clear shot at them. Frankly, I think Harry's survival of the AK in the forest--where he was completely unarmed--swung Narcissa to the other side. When the DEs were fighting their way into Hogwarts Castle, were the Malfoys even fighting? I thought they were just looking for Draco.
Bella may be Narcissa's sister, but I personally believe both Lucius and Narcissa are glad Bella and Voldy are gone. Both of them have made the Malfoys prisoners in their own home. I'm not a big Malfoy fan, but it seems to me they've decided to stick around and take whatever medicine the new regime decides to give them. Okay, so Lucius has to go to Azkaban for a while. He's done that before ... he knows he can survive. No Dementors should make it less awful than before, too.
It's possible, too, that the Malfoys are counting on a good word from Harry regarding Narcissa's role in his defeat of Voldy. Harry can afford to be generous now, so maybe he will say something. It's also possible that this entire ordeal has had a positive effect on the Malfoys. You never know ...
Solitaire
- Oct 9, 2008 9:52 pm (#730 of 734)
Edited Oct 9, 2008 10:56 pm
I think - pureblood ideology or not - Lucius was truly interested in Voldemort only while Voldy's power meant power for him as well. Actually, Lucius seemed to be doing quite well while the Dark Lord was Vapormort but he was probably afraid to turn away from him when he returned. However, when he lost favour, he probably lost interest in Voldy's cause as well - but again he was afraid to turn against him and he did what he could (e.g. handing over Harry) to get back into his favour until it became quite clear (during the battle) that there was nothing to gain for them: Draco was in danger, they could not go to him and Voldemort did not care.
I think Harry's survival of the AK in the forest--where he was completely unarmed--swung Narcissa to the other side. Solitaire
She probably understood there must have been something special in the Potter boy after all, if he was able to survive Voldy's AK - again! She may have thought at that point that Voldy had lost the battle. And she wanted to see Draco alive.
As for gratitude towards Snape: They should have been grateful anyway (I'm not sure if Lucius was capable of feeling gratitude though) if they realized that Snape had saved Draco's life. (Draco's life is supposed to be the most important thing to them, isn't it?) Snape had saved Draco from the Sectumsempra, from LV's wrath (by killing Dumbledore) and there might even be another thing (though it is not sure): if Snape knew at any point that Draco had disarmed Dumbledore, he could have tried to save his own life with this information in the Shrieking Shack but of course he would not have done that. The Malfoys might have also realized had Snape been a real DE, after the Spinner's End scene he might have been just too glad to inform Voldy that his former favourite's wife was making plans of her own behind his back. (After all, Snape was said to have usurped Lucius's position. A real DE would have wanted to keep this new position of power by any means.)
On the other hand, Lucius may have realized why his mission in the MOM had gone wrong, i.e., who had sent the Order of the Phoenix there...
But in the end, I think, Lucius got out of the trouble. He could be happy to survive his former school-mates at least and he did not have to worry about pleasing Voldy any more.
Edited Oct 10, 2008 7:44 pm
Okay, so Lucius has to go to Azkaban for a while. (Soli)
I don't think he had to go to Azkaban. JKR says that the Malfoys managed to wriggle out of trouble yet again by pointing out that they colluded with the good side in the final battle. That sounds as if they all went scot free.
- Oct 11, 2008 3:42 am (#732 of 734)
JKR's words are the only indication of what she thought would happen to the Malfoys. Since this is not actually in the books, we are still free to have our own opinions. Personally, I find it very much in character with Lucius and Narcissa to wriggle out of trouble.
- Oct 11, 2008 7:31 am (#733 of 734)
Mona, I was not suggesting that Lucius did go; I was only saying that he might have said to himself that, if he did have to go, he would manage. I agree that he probably managed to "slither" out of it.
Solitaire
Ah, yes, I see that now! 
+ Lucius Malfoy